learn-value-investing-with-phoebe / Analyst session 8 of 10
Learn Value Investing with Phoebe · Analyst session 8 of 10

How long excess returns last

Everyone who has sat through a stock pitch has heard the word moat. Tonight it stops being a word and becomes a number: how many years a business keeps earning more on its capital than that capital costs. We look at what the Base Rate Book found when it followed the best and worst earners for ten years, then we put the moat where it actually lives in a two-stage DCF, the growth years, and watch what 5, 10 and 15 of them do to Procter & Gamble's modelled value. The answer is smaller than most people guess, and the reason is the most useful thing on the page.

🟡 Analyst Analysts, finance and data people who hear "durable advantage" in every pitch Python, standard library only 45 min
0-3 · Welcome 3-18 · Years, regression, the model 18-40 · Build-along: advantage period as an input 40-45 · Q&A
Part 0

Where we start

Analyst session 7 showed that fast growth rarely lasts. Tonight asks the companion question: how long do high returns last? Why a business has a moat, network effects, switching costs, scale, is economics, and it lives in Economics: games and moats ↗. We do not re-teach it. Here a moat is one input to a valuation, measured in years, and the job is to choose that input honestly and to know how much it moves the answer.

🎫 Clear all three quiz questions to stamp your passport Live = presented in the 45 minutes Self-study = the full depth, after class ★ Build-along = everyone builds

★ What you walk out with tonight. A definition of a moat you can type into a model, the Base Rate Book's finding that the gap between the best and worst returns halves over ten years rather than vanishing, a loop that values P&G at 87.76, 95.16 and 101.31 for 5, 10 and 15 growth years, the reason the last five years add only about 6 dollars, and a one-page worksheet that argues for a long or short advantage period with evidence instead of adjectives.

Part 1 · covers the competitive advantage period

A moat is a number of years

5 min live

A business creates value only while it earns more on its capital than the capital costs: return on invested capital minus the cost of capital, the excess return from Analyst session 3. Competition, imitation and plain bad luck push that gap toward zero. The competitive advantage period is how long the gap stays open. A wide moat is a gap that closes slowly; no moat is a gap that closes in a few years. That is the whole idea, and it is something a model can hold.

A MOAT IS HOW LONG THE GAP STAYS OPEN constructed curves, labelled; no filer's data excess return (ROIC minus cost of capital) same start WIDE MOAT excess return fades slowly no moat fades within a few years years from today 0: returns equal the cost of capital no moat: short advantage period wide moat Shaded: the value the wide moat's excess return creates. Both curves are invented to show the shape.
🔍 Click to zoom - two businesses can start with the same return; the moat is the difference in how long it lasts
LiveWhere the moat lives in a two-stage DCF3 min▶

The two-stage DCF from Analyst session 4 has three dials that are really one claim about durability. The growth years, n: how long the business can reinvest at returns above its cost of capital. The growth rate in those years, g: how much it can reinvest at those returns. The fade: how fast growth drops to the terminal rate afterwards. In our function the fade is a cliff, from 5 percent to 2.5 percent in one step, which is a simplification you should say out loud when you show the number.

So "this business has a wide moat" translates into the model as "n is long, and the fade is slow". "No moat" translates as "n is short, and anything it earns above the rate is gone soon". A pitch that says wide moat and then uses the same ten years as every other company has not put its claim into its number.

Self-studyWhy growth without excess return adds nothing3 min▶

Growth costs money: to grow, a business reinvests. If the reinvestment earns exactly the cost of capital, every dollar put in is worth a dollar, and growth adds nothing. Analyst session 3's constructed Brightwell Pumps showed it: at a 9 percent cost of capital and 3 percent growth, its value was 160.0 with a 15 percent return on capital, 133.3 at 9 percent (the same as no growth at all) and 100.0 at 6 percent, where growth destroyed value. See Analyst session 3: Return on invested capital.

That is why the growth years and the moat are the same dial. Long growth years in a model only add value if the business earns above its cost of capital during them. Damodaran's rule that reinvestment equals growth divided by return on capital makes the link explicit. Our dcf() does not charge for reinvestment separately: it grows owner earnings at g, so it quietly assumes the reinvestment earns well. Every long n is a claim that the moat holds for those years.

Real world

Half of listed companies are gone within ten years. The Base Rate Book, which follows the top 1,000 global companies by market value since 1950, dead ones included, reports that about one-half of all public companies cease to exist within ten years of listing. Some are bought, some fail, some merge away. A model with ten growth years for every business is assuming a durability that the base rate says half of companies never get to test.

Part 2 · covers the Base Rate Book on returns

Returns regress, slowly

5 min live

The Base Rate Book (Mauboussin, Callahan and Majd, Credit Suisse, 2016) sorted companies into five groups each year by cash flow return on investment, CFROI, measured against the median company, then followed each group for ten years. At the start the top group sat 18 percentage points above the bottom group. Ten years later the gap was 9 points. Returns regressed toward the mean, but only part of the way: the best earners stayed better, by half as much.

THE GAP HALVES IN TEN YEARS; IT DOES NOT CLOSE CFROI minus the median, five quintiles, top 1,000 global companies 18 points 9 points top quintile median bottom quintile pulled toward the median year 0 year 10 Only the two spreads, 18 and 9 points, are from the Base Rate Book; the paths between them are sketched.
🔍 Click to zoom - modest regression toward the mean: the best stay better, by half as much
LiveWhat 18 to 9 means for your growth years3 min▶

Two readings are wrong. "High returns are always competed away" is wrong: after ten years the top group still earned well above the bottom group. "A great business stays great" is wrong too: half the advantage went in a decade, on average. The base rate sits between them, and it is the starting point for any n you choose. An analyst who picks fifteen years of above-average returns should be able to say why this business beats a base rate in which half the gap closes in ten.

The finding is about groups, not any one company. Some top-quintile companies held their position; some fell to the middle or below. The base rate does not tell you which a particular business will be. It tells you how much evidence you need before you assume it is one of the durable ones.

Self-studyLuck and skill mix in any one year's return3 min▶

The Base Rate Book makes a point that surprises people: regression toward the mean does not need competition as its cause. Any one year's return is part lasting advantage and part luck, a good harvest, a competitor's stumble, a currency swing. Sort companies by this year's return and the top group is full of companies that had both. Next year the advantage tends to stay and the luck does not repeat, so the group drifts toward the middle even if no rival lifted a finger.

That changes how you read a single great year. The more luck there is in a measure, the faster it regresses, and the less one good year should lengthen your n. The same book found earnings growth rates "not very persistent", which is the same mechanism showing up in a noisier number. A run of returns over many years, through a bad patch, is better evidence of a moat than any single year at the top.

Real world

The Base Rate Book's quintile table. Mauboussin, Callahan and Majd measured CFROI against the universe median, not in absolute terms, so a whole-market boom or slump does not move the spread. Across their sample, the top-to-bottom spread shrank from 18 to 9 percentage points over ten years. They call it modest regression toward the mean, and it is the closest thing to a published base rate for how long excess returns last.

Part 3 · covers the growth-years swing

Put the moat in the model

5 min live

Now the number. Take P&G's rung-3 base from Analyst session 4, ten-year mean owner earnings of 5.00 a share (all-capex approximation), with 5 percent growth, a 9 percent discount rate and 2.5 percent after. Change only the growth years. Five years gives 87.76, the default ten gives 95.16, fifteen gives 101.31. Tripling the advantage period from five years to fifteen raises the modelled value by about 13.55 dollars a share (a difference between two modelled values), and the second five years add less than the first.

MORE YEARS OF GROWTH, LESS EACH TIME P&G rung 3, base 5.00, g 5%, r 9%, 2.5% after; value per share, modelled 87.76 95.16 101.31 +7.41 years 6 to 10 +6.15 years 11 to 15 5 growth years 10 (the default) 15 growth years Modelled on computed owner earnings. The increments are differences between modelled values. None of these bars measures P&G's moat; they show what the model does if you assume one.
🔍 Click to zoom - the brass caps are what each extra five years of advantage is worth today, and they shrink
LiveWhy fifteen years adds only about 6 dollars here4 min▶

Three things shrink the reward for a longer advantage period. The gap between growth and the rate is small. Growing at 5 percent and discounting at 9 percent, each year's extra cash is worth less today than the year before, so years 11 to 15 arrive heavily discounted. The terminal already assumes growth. After the growth years the model still grows at 2.5 percent forever; a longer n only swaps 2.5 percent for 5 percent in a few distant years. Distance compounds. A dollar in year 15 at 9 percent is worth far less today than a dollar in year 5.

That is why people overestimate what a moat is worth in a model at these inputs. Change the inputs and the answer changes: a business that could grow much faster than its discount rate would gain far more from extra years, which is exactly when a long n most needs evidence. At 5 percent and 9 percent, the honest summary is: doubling the advantage period from five years to ten adds 7.41, adding five more adds 6.15. The moat matters, but it is not the input that moves this valuation most; Analyst session 6 showed the discount rate and the growth rate swing it further.

Self-studyThe qualitative version: "favorable long-term prospects"3 min▶

Buffett's 1977 letter, read at source, lists four things Berkshire wants in a business it buys shares in, judged the way it would judge buying the whole company: one it can understand, with "favorable long-term prospects", run by honest and competent people, available at a very attractive price. The second criterion is the qualitative form of tonight's input. It does not say how many years. It says the analyst must have a reason to believe the economics will still be good a long way out.

Translate it into the model and it becomes a question you answer in writing before you set n: what would have to be true for this business to keep earning above its cost of capital for ten more years, and what evidence do I have that it is? Nothing on this page measures any filer's actual moat. The P&G figures show what the model does with an assumption; the assumption is still yours, and the build-along makes you write it down.

Real world

Procter & Gamble, three advantage periods. The base comes from P&G's 10-K facts through fiscal 2026: ten-year mean owner earnings of 4.998525 a share, displayed as 5.00. At the defaults the model gives 95.16. Shorten the advantage period to five years and it falls to 87.76; lengthen it to fifteen and it rises to 101.31. The whole argument about whether P&G's brands give it five years or fifteen is worth, in this model, about 13.55 dollars a share, a narrower range than moving the discount rate by one point either way, which spans 81.95 to 113.24.

Build-along

Advantage period as an input

★ 22 min · everyone builds

Python 3, standard library only. We reuse the dcf() function from Analyst session 4 unchanged, loop the growth years, and then do the part no code can do: write down why a particular filer deserves a long or a short advantage period. The printed output below is what the code printed when run.

THE EVIDENCE PICKS N; THE CODE DOES THE ARITHMETIC Evidence for a long period what keeps returns above the rate Evidence for a short period what would erode them, how fast The base rate spread 18 to 9 points in 10 years choose n 5, 10 or 15 growth years dcf(BASE, 0.09, n, 0.05, 0.025) 87.76 / 95.16 / 101.31 P&G rung 3. Nothing on this page measures any filer's moat; the left column is yours to fill in.
🔍 Click to zoom - the brass box is the judgment; everything to its right is arithmetic you can check

Step 1 · Bring back dcf(). The same function as Analyst session 4, with the same guard. Use the exact base, not the displayed 5.00, or the values will not match.

★ Step 1 · dcf(), unchangeddef dcf(base, r, n, g, gt): if r <= gt: raise ValueError("terminal growth must sit below the discount rate") cash, stage = base, 0.0 for year in range(1, n + 1): cash = cash * (1 + g) stage += cash / (1 + r) ** year tv = cash * (1 + gt) / (r - gt) terminal = tv / (1 + r) ** n return stage + terminal, stage, terminal BASE = 4.998525 # P&G ten-year mean owner earnings per share; displays as 5.00

Step 2 · Loop the advantage period. Hold the discount rate, the growth rate and the terminal fixed, change only n, and print what each extra five years adds.

★ Step 2 · three advantage periods, and what it printedprev = None for n in (5, 10, 15): value, _, _ = dcf(BASE, r=0.09, n=n, g=0.05, gt=0.025) extra = "" if prev is None else f" +{value - prev:.2f} for five more years" print(f"{n:>2} growth years value {value:6.2f}{extra}") prev = value 5 growth years value 87.76 10 growth years value 95.16 +7.41 for five more years 15 growth years value 101.31 +6.15 for five more years

The values match Part 3. The increments, 7.41 and 6.15, are modelled: differences between two modelled values on the same computed base.

Step 3 · Put the choice next to the number. Whatever n you choose, print it inside the sentence, so nobody reads the value without the assumption that made it.

★ Step 3 · the sentencen = 10 # change this only after Step 4 value, _, _ = dcf(BASE, r=0.09, n=n, g=0.05, gt=0.025) print(f"P&G rung 3, base 5.00 (all-capex owner earnings), {n} years at 5% " f"then 2.5%, at 9%: {value:.2f}. n is my advantage period; see my evidence.")

Step 4 · Write the evidence for one filer. Pick Caterpillar, Exxon Mobil, Johnson & Johnson or Procter & Gamble. Fill in the worksheet in words. No new numbers: if you want one, you have not found it in the filings yet, so write what you would need instead. Then come back to Step 3 and set n.

★ Step 4 · the advantage-period worksheet# filer: ______________________________ # # evidence for a LONG advantage period # (what keeps its returns above the cost of capital, and since when?) # 1. ____________________________________________ # 2. ____________________________________________ # # evidence for a SHORT advantage period # (what could erode those returns, and how fast?) # 1. ____________________________________________ # 2. ____________________________________________ # # the base rate: top-to-bottom CFROI spread fell from 18 to 9 points in 10 years. # does my evidence beat that, match it, or fall short of it? ______________ # # n I choose (5, 10 or 15) and the one sentence why: ______________________ # what I would have to see to shorten it: _________________________________

Keep n honest by keeping it visible. The advantage period is the input most often set to the default and never mentioned. Wherever your value travels, the sentence travels with it, and the worksheet sits behind the sentence. If someone asks "why ten years?", the answer is a page of evidence, not "that is what the template had".

Homework

Before Analyst session 9

30 min
  1. Finish the worksheet for a second filer, chosen to be as different from the first as you can. Note where the two worksheets disagree about n and why.
  2. Re-run Step 2 on another base from your Analyst session 2 work. Write one line on whether the extra five years add more or less than for P&G, and which input explains it. Your numbers will differ.
  3. Change the growth rate in the loop and watch the increments. Write one sentence on when a longer advantage period starts to matter a lot, and why that is exactly when the claim needs the most evidence.
  4. Find the qualitative version in your own words: rewrite Buffett's "favorable long-term prospects" criterion as three questions you would ask management, without naming any number.
Check yourself

Three questions

Clear all three and Analyst session 8 gets stamped in your passport.

1 · In a two-stage DCF, what is the competitive advantage period?

Growth only adds value while reinvestment earns more than it costs. The advantage period is how long that lasts, and in the model it lives in n and the fade, not in the base or the terminal rate.

2 · The Base Rate Book sorted companies into CFROI quintiles relative to the median. What happened to the top-to-bottom spread over ten years?

Half the gap went in a decade, on average. The best stayed better, by half as much. Luck in any one year's return is enough to produce regression even with no rival at all.

3 · On P&G's rung-3 base at 5 percent growth and a 9 percent rate, going from 10 to 15 growth years raises the value from 95.16 to 101.31, about 6 dollars. Why so little?

With growth below the discount rate, each later year is worth less today, and the terminal was already giving the business growth. The model says nothing about P&G's actual moat; it shows what the assumption is worth.

Sources covered

What this session teaches, and where it came from

✓CFROI quintiles relative to the median; top-to-bottom spread 18 to 9 points over 10 years; regression without competition as its cause; about one-half of companies gone within ten years of listing; earnings growth not very persistentMauboussin, M., Callahan, D. and Majd, D., "The Base Rate Book", Credit Suisse, 2016 (read at source, hosted copy)
✓The four criteria, including "favorable long-term prospects", as the qualitative form of the advantage periodBuffett, W., Berkshire Hathaway shareholder letter, 1977 (read at source)
✓P&G rung-3 base 4.998525 (5.00); values 87.76, 95.16 and 101.31 for 5, 10 and 15 growth years; 81.95 to 113.24 across the discount rate; increments 7.41 and 6.15 modelledSEC EDGAR XBRL company facts, read from a public mirror; computed, with the values modelled at the stated assumptions
◐Reinvestment equals growth divided by return on capitalDamodaran, A., valuation class slides, terminal value session, NYU Stern, 2023 (read at source); named, taught in Analyst session 3
◐Moats as economics: network effects, switching costs, scaleTaught in Economics: games and moats; linked, not re-taught

Every fact on this page, and its verification tier, is recorded in the course's source map.

Analyst session 8 cheat sheet · pin this

A moat is a number of yearsHow long returns stay above the cost of capital.
Where it livesThe growth years n and the fade. Not the base, not the terminal.
The base rateCFROI spread, top to bottom: 18 points to 9 in ten years.
Regression needs no rivalLuck in one year's return does not repeat.
What n is worth hereP&G: 87.76, 95.16, 101.31 for 5, 10, 15 years. Each five adds less.
Evidence before nWrite why it is long or short. Nothing here measures a moat.